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Timing games...
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Frankie
System Leader


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 760

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Timing games... Reply with quote

MJS wrote:

Quote:
2007-05-12 22:40:53: Recording confirmed by MJS
Remark: lenght should be 12:10


He wrote that about Chad's Elevator Action Spectrum Recording. No, the lenght should not be 12:10 but 12:01. Its not the lenght of the recording, but the lenght of the game itself that counts Smile

Pete, this leads me to something I've been thinking about for a while now. What if we have a tourney or just under RP where a game is sorted by time, and everyone keeps on changing their times, to move up the scorechart? In this example I couldn't even see on the logs that Chad had changed it back. This could end up in a mess. My suggestion how to solve this is this:

When the System Editor have timed the game and entered the time it colurs the lenght column in another colour and locks it, so that only the System Editor can open it again to make another input. The other colour is just to make it easy for the SE to know that he have already timed it :)

I really think we should make something like this, to avoid problems in the future.

I don't know which other fields are shown in the logs if changed back by the player. Maybe it should be possible for the System Editor to lock all fields once he have checked it?

It migth be nice that WolfMess times the recordings, but its not really of any use in opinion Smile

Bye.
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Frankie

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http://www.zxspectrum.homeactionreplay.org/index.php

HARP Amiga System Leader:
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gameboy9
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Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 810

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, yes, I'm afraid that Frankie is correct, it's the actual time of the game that counts, not the gap between starting the game and stopping the game.

Now, the time showing in MESS is still a big help. Instead of being forced to somehow time the entire game, we only have to time it from the start of the recording to the start of the game, then we can whiz by the game if we'd like, then we have to time it from the end of the game to the end of the recording.

Yeah, I definitely need to implement a "locked" feature.
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Chad
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 811

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Locking would be a great feature but I think the core issue is debatable.

The length of the game is certainly the thing that counts. But if time really counts why wouldn't you want to time the length of time that a person was using the game (from run to ESC) rather than the time which is extremely difficult to get acurrate from begin frame to end frame, this would create an exponential time for confirmers to sit there and determine two points of time in the game, (probably needing to replay the game a couple times because the exact frames were missed...)

Certainly for games that have a time in them, that time should be used in the HARP entry. But if no game time exists, i think it makes life easier and doesn't lose much acuracy to use the time of the length of the recording.

If someone has the same score/levels, and happens to press esc FASTER than the person who actually had a slightly shorter game time, i think the FASTER esc should win in that case. For the most part that's all really what were talking about here between game time and record time, breaking ties.

On the side of timing the actual playing game time, this lets players playing the game to sit through the attract mode until they are ready and other cut scenes that would be fun to watch, but no one ever does that anyway! press fire/start ad nausium until play starts (except me :) so i really think the time of the game should be counted from start to ESC. IMHO, it's the way players play and MUCH easier to confirm.

But it would be silly to change midstream a system that already has playtime counted (like spectrum), 12:01 is ok. Though you should have a document on each game, when the timing frame must start and the end timing frame will end! But since apple2 timing was always from start to ESC, that's the way they will continue to be.

gameboy9 wrote:
Now, the time showing in MESS is still a big help

Note the real=F11-time display is a wolfmess feature ONLY, probably won't ever be in MESS and could be in wolfmame but proly won't.
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Frankie
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 760

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chad wrote:

But it would be silly to change midstream a system that already has playtime counted (like spectrum), 12:01 is ok. Though you should have a document on each game, when the timing frame must start and the end timing frame will end! But since apple2 timing was always from start to ESC, that's the way they will continue to be.


The timing is always from the second the player starts the game until the Game Over message comes, including all sorts of end game sequences, as its the same for all. This is not hard at all, as the System Editors know the games, and if its timed 1 second more or less that is not a huge crime. No one said it should be precise on the second :)

A document isn't needed I think, as most players don't time their recordings anyway. Its always up to the Editor.

Timing it to you stop the recording by pressing ESC is not a good idea I think. I like to put my initials onto the scoreboard (when possible) after playing. So I get a longer recording because I do that then someone who doesn't. Doesn't seem right to me. I cannot really see the point in doing it that way. Sorry Smile

As I said above it doesn't have to be timed on the second, one more or less is okay, and human Wink
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Frankie

HARP Spectrum System Leader.
http://www.zxspectrum.homeactionreplay.org/index.php

HARP Amiga System Leader:
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Chad
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

note i'm not suggesting to change existing systems (spectrum), but to conder new ones (c64). More people can judge time with out being an expert in when the game actually starts or stops (it may seem trival to some but eventually there will be disputes and a mess with possible confusion. recording time has no confusion.)

So if a second or two doesn't matter, then why would it matter to include enter initials in the time??? :) Please consider the c64 for using wolfmess time, it will make things much easier for submiters/confirmers and allow a un-disputeable time to be entered.
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Frankie
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind what they do on c64, but I believe what Pete wants is the lenght of gameplay, and that is what it will continue to be on the Spectrum. It takes longer than a few second to input initials :wink:

I believe my timing is within plus/minus one second, which is allright I think.

Bye.
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Frankie

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http://www.zxspectrum.homeactionreplay.org/index.php

HARP Amiga System Leader:
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Chad
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Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shouldn't you care about c64 since you will be the first moderator? :) Oops i see i meant amiga, my reading skills arent too good...

I totally agree that game time is what truly counts (I would glady appriciate a moderator counting the acurate time with in 1 or 2 seconds, but i'm glad i'm not that moderator.) But it would be rare to have someone lose a place in the standings just because they entered their initials. I'd postulate that maybe 10% of games have a 1% chance of encountering two people having the same score and being in a situation where scoring by recorded time will end up in an unfair advantage over scoring by game time. In that situation game time should be used, and to save everyone else tons of effort in the 99% of the rest of recordings record time should be used. My intention here is ONLY to lobby that brand new harp systems begin using recorded time.
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MJS
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Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Chad on this.
If you want to measure the time by hand go ahead, it's more accurate... but it is very tedious work, and pretty much pointless in my opinion.
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gameboy9
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Joined: 20 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm... going to need a marker that indicates recording time vs. actual time...
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Frankie
System Leader


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 760

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chad wrote:
Shouldn't you care about c64 since you will be the first moderator? Smile Oops i see i meant amiga, my reading skills arent too good...


Where did you read that I was gonna be first moderator for the Amiga? I'm surprised the Amiga works in Mess now, as for a few month time it did not look to good. Must check it out Smile
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Frankie

HARP Spectrum System Leader.
http://www.zxspectrum.homeactionreplay.org/index.php

HARP Amiga System Leader:
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NotMan



Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't even expect C64 working in latest WolfMESS for a while. It has been broken since 105, due the CISC merger (I think) on MESS 106.

At least if somebody in MESS DEV have to rewrite the C64 driver all over again and fix the joystick port #2 bug, first. So don't expect to see C64 replays on WolfMess for a while. :/

Good Luck, Frankie on moderator on Amiga. Expect us to know what Kickstart versions to use on WolfMESS.

NotMan
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Chad
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankie wrote:


Where did you read that I was gonna be first moderator for the Amiga?


that's strange, gameboy must have clarevoiance

http://forums.homeactionreplay.org/viewtopic.php?t=295

I like the recorded/input/recording time VS. played/actual/game time option, that solves it both ways. Though then the score by time methods must be scored to ORDER by play time, then if play time is null ORDER by recorded time, seems very possible and a complete solution. All apple2,msx games can be converted to recorded time, and when submiting/editing we'll put the time in the kind of time field for the time we measure. Brilliant gameboy!
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MJS
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Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 177
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankie wrote:
Where did you read that I was gonna be first moderator for the Amiga? I'm surprised the Amiga works in Mess now, as for a few month time it did not look to good. Must check it out Smile

Do not underestimate the power of MESS!
Of course, its power is directly proportional to the power it demands from your computer hehehe... but hey! We are talking about X68000 and Amiga! I will upgrade my pc just because of that! :D

And I like this new way of choosing moderators... good luck with the Amiga Frankie! Laughing
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gameboy9
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The editors now have a locking mechanism.

Actually, I did one better. A non-editor can't edit his recording when the recording is confirmed, either.
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Frankie
System Leader


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 760

PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gameboy9 wrote:
The editors now have a locking mechanism.

Actually, I did one better. A non-editor can't edit his recording when the recording is confirmed, either.


Great work. Just one question. I think it would be of benefit if it was easy to see if a recording is locked. Or am I just being annoying again? Laughing Wink

Bye.
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Frankie

HARP Spectrum System Leader.
http://www.zxspectrum.homeactionreplay.org/index.php

HARP Amiga System Leader:
http://forums.homeactionreplay.org/viewforum.php?f=29
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